...yeh,yer right--gladiator blood-sport SPRIT boats'll do it,eh??

and bikinis for the girls like the beach volley ball, no need for PFD's

There are currently 87 classes entitled to hold World championships - thats 87 champs every year, but 9 Olympic gold medals every 4 years. Think you're wrong!

I would love to see it on TV etc, but just because I don't won't change anything. What I do want is our olympians supported and allowed to keep competing.

I don't mind if part of my $50 or what ever goes there, because I wished I had, or could have gone. Yes, the money should be allocated fairly as well, YA should be doing more to raise revenue or getting sponsors for our chosen one's. Money should bring quality of gear not sailor. Aspirants should be able to sail anything well enough to get their break.

One club in Canberra will die soon, the other is growing every year, because of the efforts put in as a club, and having an exceptional manager. My point is that clubs can do heaps more to look after themselves and to increase the sports popularity in the community. Clubs need to be more responsible and more active (some already are hence their position).

This assesment is mine alone and does not necessarily reflect the opinion of Dougie or any other entity.

So YMCASC will continue to prosper and CYC will die and disappear ??

at least that'll save the finns having to tack up behind L'Ile De la Cite, the wind shadow behind notre dame is a bugger

Actually, no. Your way outdated unfortunately Jason.

Read the above again.......

The amount of preperation, testing, trianing an athlete goes through over 4 to 8 years for one event shadows what athletes in non Olympic class will go through for a World Championship.

The level of competition at the top end off an Olympic class World Championship is in another leauge again to non Olympic Class boats.

No Olympics and this level of profesionalism will be gone. These teams also test and develop boats, rigs and sails which in turn filters down in the less 'profesional classes'. This also applies to sailing techneques tried and tested in training.

I know development also comes from non Olympic classes but no where near the same amount.

Olympic sailing is the pinical of our sport and if we loose it we will loose more than you think. For those who have not experienced racing in an Olympic Class, would not realise what benifits Olympic sailing realy brings to our sport.

The Olympics is the worst thing to happen to sailing and racing. The sooner the better.

Actually I think Alpha was giving you the stated opinion of people like Lowel North and Jonathan McKee.

Also, in case anyone wants to read about what's really going on in ENGLISH:

By JAMES CHRISTIE
Tuesday, June 14, 2005
Associated Press

International Olympic Committee members have a 256-page statistical report to help them decide if any sports should be dropped from the Games to make way for new events. Each of the 28 sports contested in Athens last summer will be put to a vote; any sport failing to get a majority will be dropped for the 2012 Olympics. Track and field, swimming, artistic gymnastics and basketball drew the highest TV viewership, while lowest went to sailing, archery, shooting and modern pentathlon. Track got the most press coverage, followed by swimming, soccer, gymnastics and basketball. Least coverage went to trampoline, rhythmic gymnastics, modern pentathlon and mountain biking.

Seven-a-side rugby, golf, karate, squash and roller sports are all vying for a spot on the Olympic program. No sport has been cut from the Summer Games since polo in 1936.

Captains of the world's top rugby sevens teams recently sent a letter of protest to IOC president Jacques Rogge after a top Olympic official called the sport "a joke." IOC executive board member Denis Oswald made the remark about rugby sevens at Association of Summer Olympic International Federations meeting on June 7.

The biggest thing I think,is that sailing is a participant sport not a spectator one.Unlees the there are huge windage bearing spectator stands forget about the numbers rising,its after all too hard to have multiple camera boats on the course.

If the IOC are assessing sports based on reports like that, then they are just stupid, Sailing gets no coverage because it's too hard and expensive to cover. Hence the low viewership and when it is put on, it's snuck in for 5 mins as a filler between events, because TV execs don't think anyone wants to watch it, Promote it you dicks (TV execs) and it will be watched.

God knows why Mountain Biking got the least press coverage, it is a big sport.

Yes winning an Olympic medal has more prestige than winning a Worlds. But I think pouring all your dollars into just the Olympians is cutting your nose off in spite of your face.

To make room for other sports?
So do they play 7 a side rugby in the water?


If they drop sailing, I hope they replace it with lots and lots of womens beach volley ball.

No But at least it would mean an almost garenteed gold for New Zealand

Historically being selected as an Olympic class has been the near death knell for most classes. I know there are exceptions to this but how many solings, T's, 470's, 49ers etc do you see competing every weekend. Most Olympic aspirants (I said most) seem to only either train or compete in selection regattas. So what benefit dies this provide to all of the cash cow amateurs out there.

Can’t say I’d notice the difference if sailing was dropped. I’d rather watch the ladies gymnastics anytime.

Rawhide

Rather than argue that there is a benefit flowing down to amateur sailors like ourselves, I'd ask why you expect a benefit? And most of us wouldn't notice if sailing was dropped because we aren't talented enough/committed enough/interested enough to compete at that level.

But for those with the talent, committment and interest, the Olympics are there for them to strive for. Why take that away from someone else (especially if there is no concomitant benefit to the majority).

Now, look at other sports - what benefit does a person who swims recreationally (or even competitively) obtain from Ian Thorpe's haul of gold medals? None really - it's a diferent level of the sport. Would that recreational swimmer notice if swimming was dropped from the Olympics? Probably not.

So why not do away with the Olympics altogether?

My point is that if the Olympics remain, sailing should remain an Olympic sport.

BTW - in sleepy backwater Darwin we have a big fleet of Tornado's. But that's one class I reckon would die if it was replaced at the Olympics. And Hobie and other manufacturers think there's a lot of money to be made if they can get their class selected, so there is constant pressure to replace the T.

What a crock of shit....The only interesting Olympic classes are the 49er and perhaps the Tornado.
Both owe their lineage and development to non olympic classes.
BTW having sailed Olympic classes I can assure you the competition for the worlds doesn't vary much between Olympic years...what does is the amount of participants.
This would indicate when they aren't spending the taxpayers bucks on their campaign...they too are enjoying different levels of the sport.

Again...nothing is gained but national prestige. If the same effort was put to winning Worlds you would have many more top line sailors than what the Olympics produce.

Some of you blokes have watched "Chariots of Fire" one too many times. Those halcyon amateur days are gone...the ideal that was golden now looks like a few tawdry brass rings in a circus tent.

Recidivist can I give you an example of how the Olympic focus has impacted recently.

In my state, our association had a coach boat and video camera which any class could access to assist with training. I have used it in the past to help coaching the 505 guys. Now though we have a new high performance coach appointed to the state and he has all the toys.

Now the new coach has been a mate of mine for 20 years, so I thought I would hit him up for a day of work with the Tasars prior to their Worlds. No can do. His charter does not allow him to work with non-olympic or non-youth classes. Not only that, we are not allowed access to the boat or the camera anymore.

That is wrong. Certainly where I come from, none of the talent sails Olympic classes.

Jfunk - I was thinking that one of the benefits that does flow down to ordinary sailors was the development of coaches and coaching skills.

However, if your state restricts the coach to Olympic classes when they are not strong in that state, someone's got rocks in their head. I guess there are funding issues from YA and so Victor weilds a lot of influence!

We are trying to establish a squad up here. YA send Katie Culbert to lay some groundwork and flexibility was built in. We have a fairly strong Tasar fleet but no 470's or 49'ers. So obviously, Tasars are acceptable. Our juniors sail Minnows and any Optimist appearing on the beach would be burnt, so the junior feeder class is the Minnow. Common sense stuff. Eventually the focus may shift to Olympic classes but the boats have to appear first.

You're in SA I guess? I know 49'ers can't handle the chop and 5o5's are excellent - but the 5o's are an ISAF recognised class with a World Championship aren't they? Unfortunately, SAYRA has always been run by a bunch of bloody twits and I think that's where your problem lies, not with Olympic sailors. Let's face it, if you decide to run an Olympic campaign you have to move to Sydney anyway, so you can then hop into a 49'er and get on the teat.

Sucks about the coach boat but that decision wasn't made by Michael Blackburn, Darren Bundock etc.

R

No mate I realise that and I don't think Brendan had much choice, but I hope it changes, especially when you look at the 505's because the Worlds are here January 2007. All the guns are getting boats and there is a LOT of prestige in winning a 505 Worlds. Fark just winning a club heat here is going to have a lot of pretige the way it's going.

I agree that the Olympics are the pinnacle of the sport with the possible exception of AC or a Etchells worlds. Sailing should remain in the Olympics. My point is I don't see much return to the average sailor for the money they pay and yes if Olympians get our money then we should get a benefit. I hope that the AYF give good service to the Olympians with our fees because I don't see they provide much benefit to the rest of us. My rant is not aimed at anyone who has the obsession required to succeed at that level only how they are funded.

Disagree with your comments re the T I don't think the boat being dropped from the Olympics would make much of a impact on most sailors in the class. Some no doubt are after the prestige of sailing a Olypic class but most of the sailors I know don't care.

Jeez, you've got a contingent sailing in Tasar Worlds and you've got a strong, hot fleet of 5o's and the Worlds in 18 months - M8 if YSA won't provide the coach you should all storm their next meeting!

But remember, the YA coach will only be available to the top 5% anyway - why not everyone toss in a couple of mawsons and get class coach to work with the rest.

Tell me Eventually, which non Olympic Class does the Tornado "owe its lineage and development" too. Certainly not the F-18...... so what else......

The F-18 class inspired the spinnaker revolution. I know other classes have been there first but the F-18 or should I say Tiger, realy got it going. The Tornado was the pinacal of refinement and soon adopted the spinnaker. All the advances from equiptment, systems, deck lay out, sailing techneques....... The big T lead the way and it trickled down to other classes.

Sorry I can not comment on the 49er or other Olympic classes as I am not as familuar with them.


Also

YA recieves 3.5 million a year to produce Olympic success and $550,000 from Silver Card holders. If Sailing is dropped from the Olympics than the 3.5 mill is gone.

I do hope that the $550,000 is not directed towards Olympic campaigns. However I think you would find that part of the 3.5 million would benifit the non Olympic representitives. Such as......

Sail, rig, boat development and advances.
ADvances in coaching
Sailing Marketing
Youth training and associated facilities
Disabled sailing and associated facilities
Facilitation of the sport
Certain Sailing venues and regattas

I am sure there is much more that I have not thought off. Why not contact the YA and ask them how the money benifits the average sailor. I am sure it is not the first time somebody has questioned it and I am sure they have an answer.

Because some are too blind to see how these benifit them as sailors does not mean it isn't.

b-class, and the unicorn for being the first streessed ply built boat. the creation of the tornado destroyed the bclass entirely.

[QUOTE]

Isn't the new HP coach where you are BT, JF?

I agree it's a crap system. The fact that the coaches are not even ALLOWED to feed information down the chain is stupid, particularly when those a level or two down are often able to provided plenty of competition to Olympic squad members in some conditions at least, if not in all conditions. Apparently YSA have been trying for years to get the AYF to ensure that Olympians pass their information down, without success.

It's shocking that you can no longer get access to the coach boat and camera.

Rawhide, about "I agree that the Olympics are the pinnacle of the sport with the possible exception of AC or a Etchells worlds."

Have you spoken to someone like "Dog" P. about the difference in standard between the Etchells worlds and the Olympic classes? He's pretty open about it; he and CM got 3rd or 4th (IIRC) out of 4 (IIRC) in the Soling trials after years of training, then hopped into the Eggshells again and won the worlds with very little training. He said it was simply that Etchell competition is nothing like the same level. A certain succesful 49er and 505 champ says the same thing about 18s and 505s v 49ers; the Olympic class level cannot be compared.

PS , Off topic, I wonder whether the Drgon worlds are tougher than the Eggshells.....much bigger fleet around the world AFAIK.

Yep BT. Great bloke, known him since he was 10, don't blame him at all. Seems they have pretty strict instructions.

I do remember Nicho jumping back into the 505's before Worlds in WA after the Olympics. Brand new boat, first sail at the Worlds, been out of the class for 4 years and he wins, unbelievable.

[QUOTE]

Tornado is a development of the C Class cat Thunder, as is clearly noted in Bob Fisher's old but great book on early cats.

TA, I'm not sure that Olympic sailing promotes the things you say.

The advances in coaching tend to be kept secret. For example, the NSW Olympic coaches are not allowed to coach the NSW Laser Radial champs (unless they are youth/women) so the 2nd biggest class in the state is denied Olympic coaching, despite the fact that the top Radial sailors have been unnofficially allowed/invited to sail big rigs with the Olympic/youth squad because they are just as fast in light airs.

Facilitation of the sport doesn't happen under the Olympic banner, and certain sailing venues are only for Olympic squad members.

There COULD be benefits from the Olympic sailing effort. The Olympic team could easily be told that they have to hold sessions with potential Olympians for example, they could hold PR/coaching sessions. But under the current Aust. plan these are effectively discouraged.

Some of the Olympians try to help, like bronze medallist Lars Kleppich who can hold sessions for club/state level sailors that his coach is not allowed to assist.

[QUOTE]

Yah, didn't mean to imply anything was BT's fault as he is a fine guy. He was talking about getting into Radials himself a while back; do you know what he's sailing himself now?

He dropped back into Mistrals for the nationals and apparently kicked ass over the current Olympic squad (although Lars was just kicking back and not pumping) which was a great effort.

At the previous nationals BT had a coaching lecture when the subject of outhaul tension came up. He asked Jessica about it and she said she alters her outhaul 1cm about 10 times per beat. Jess runs a 4:1 outhaul IIRC, so there's just 2.5mm of movement in the clew yet she says she can feel the difference, which is bloody scary but believeable 'cause Jess is soooo damn good, and those sails are so sensitive. Like sharing coaching sessions when Erik is hassling Michael B, it was a scary example of how good those top-level Olympians are.

I think he wants to get a Tasar to sail with Gab. Don't think he has much time for himself. Plus low on funds I am guessing, just brought a house.

Jess has been very good for a very long time.

Yep, and she's also always been a really damn fun person, as are all of the Mistral chicks......apart from the fact that they humiliate me on the racecourse these days, damn it!

On the topic of the thread, another windsurfer but (until recently) on the ISAF world committee side said that Jacque Rogge will not really protect sailing's spot in the Games. Instead, he feels duty bound to be if anything harder on sailing, so that he's seen to be not biased for his own sport. Bugger.

It'll be fun to see BT and Gab in a Tasar.

Agreed.

I think the following translation works a bit better, although English is not my first language:

Sailing to be the victim for old fashioned media coverage in the Olympics

Verdens Gang (ed: Norwegian newspaper) today writes that sailing could be removed from the Olympics from 2012. The reasons for IOC to suggest this are among others low viewer ratings and lack of press coverage. – To let sailing be the victim of IOC’s poor skills in in arranging good media presentation is remarkable, writes gold medallist Siren Sundby in a response to the suggestion. Here follows Sirens complete response:


IOC is no good in sailing and media
VG writes in todays newspaper that the Olympic committee, IOC, has identified sailing as one of the disciplines with the worst viewer ratings and poorest media interest in Athens 2004. According to the newspaper IOC is considering cutting sailing from the Olympic programme.
I find this remarkable. First IOC and the organizers of the Athens Olympics do a poor job in presenting the sailing events to the public. Then with their own poor job as the reason they consider cutting sailing from the Olympic programme.
In Athens the Olympics organizers showed an old fashioned and - to put it mildly - weak arrangement and coverage of the sailing. Sailing did not get a fair deal and was not prioritized by the organizers.

No television coverage in Athens
When I sailed the final race in Athens the organizers had no TV-coverage at all. The team who covered sailing chose not to show us. NRK (ed: Norwegian Television) - who would like to show my final race – had to settle for reporting from the races through a telephone line. Instead of pictures from a close and exciting race, NRK received pictures of men shooting in the air. Obviously the viewer rating from sailing is then very poor !

Oldfashioned TV coverage in Athens
When they managed to be present, the Olympic organizers presented sailing in an old-fashioned and uninspiring way, despite our modern and technology driven age. Sailing is a sport where you need to have knowledge of wind direction, marks, boatspeed, distances and competitors to realize the excitement of the sport. Traditional television pictures do not communicate this. Shown traditionally on television, sailing is not accessible and hence boring. Had the organizers used technology which communicates the exciting elements as well as the traditional pictures, sailing would have been attractive even for an audience without prior knowledge.

Limited innovative development of sailing
ISAF must assume part responsibility for the poor spectator interest in sailing. ISAF is not progressing. Regattas are still arranged in the traditional way. Public access to the sport and it’s exciting elements is apparently not on ISAF’s agenda. My proposal in todays VG i.e. to have a final sailoff with the best boats only, is only a small example of a limited mean to make the sport more exiting. Much can be learned from beach volley with playing fields on the beach, giant screens and a show accompanying the games.

In my experience the interest for sailing is big if the events are organized with media coverage in mind. According to rating polls I had the pleasure of being the most covered Norwegian before and during the Olympics. This is due to the simple fact that I and my crew as far as possible arranged our efforts with media access in mind. And they (ed: ISAF/Olympics) should learn from the big regattas now available reviving the sport through innovative spectator communication. According to Volvo the last Volvo Ocean Race was watched by a total of 1.9 billion people.

I hence claim that the spectator interest in sailing will increase significantly if the Olympic organizers manage to be innovative and organize the regatta taking into account the media and the audience by using new technology, which will provide full information regarding the activities on the course. Use pictures and graphics and link it to the facts on the course. Show the boatspeed, the positions, the wind direction and the distance to the finish line. Get cameras into the boats and use helicams (small helicopters with cameras) to get good and exiting pictures. Then the excitement in the sport will show.

Maybe heads has to roll and a new generation sailors have to enter the top of the organization before anybody understands ?

I would guess the elite coaches are supposed to be working specific areas, and then perhaps the trade back is that the Lars etc, coach to the next level. It does sound a bit odd but I'm guessing there is a particular madness to it. Pefhaps something like a few positions being a bit vulnerable.

JF, bad luck with the boat, is it the same or did they replace it with B's rig? I could understand it though, he lends to you and then somebody else who has as much right and then.... it gets broke and nobody did it. B can not have that happen.

The Yacht here has the boats available, put into performance, reap rewards of more interest, more members.

Chris I do remember Cameron’s comment having missed out on Olympic selection and then winning the E worlds. but right or wrong in my mind an etchells worlds ranks right up there. What sets the Olympics apart is that u only have a shot every 4 years. Don’t get me wrong its sailing at it's highest level. My point is would any thing be different for u or me with out it?

Spend just a small amount of time with Olympic trialists and you will get the picture. Those guys and girls put it in, and have my support and co-operation any day of the week.

YA as to wise up and do more to support them, and the local racers as well, although I believe that the clubs have to do a lot more of their own. What rewards, do the yards to get it. If that don't work kick up stink.

Oh, and couldn't we have some real sailors in some real management areas, I mean there's the Matt Allens and all the others out there. The Rivkin report was sailor driven.

Rawhide,I would say yes.

For instance I did a regatta with Micheal and two of he's understudys, and I learnt more in a four races than I had in years. If it was not for Olympics these 3 would most likely be in the real world full time, not out there being the top performer this year.

I was lucky, but it filters down, you just need a bit of effort to help it drip. Nicho gave a dinner talk to our club the proceedes went to the Youth, very unlikely that would have happened without the Olympics. h

TA Don't take this as a personal criticism but the standard of T sailing in AUS is not that great it is nowhere near that of the A class or F18. With the exception of Bundock no one else is near the pace and when was the last time bundy sailed a T in AUS? So what has the Olympics done for cat sailing in AUS? Nothing as far as I’m concerned. The only feed back came form John Forbes and that was on a personal level nothing to do with the establishment which I bet has not given you fuck all. Enjoy sailing your T for the great boat it is but don't get sucked into the bullshit that the Olympics are good for the sport.

The Tornado is similar all around the world, when they get it together for Worlds, Europes and Olympics the competion is huge from everywhere. There are not many countries in any class that are able to put together more than the top 2 or 3. Look at Aus, if Booth was still here, Bundock and Ashby is starting to get a bit of helm.

Lovig I pretty sure has had a lot of imput and training with Bundy and Forbes, I'm sure he appreciates it.

I know its not quite the same thing, but I've noticed that some of the biggest cockups in managing club racing where I sail are perpetrated by the best sailors. There is no great correlation between being a top sailor and being able to run a top event.

Agree entirely Jim, that's why I was giving examples of real world managers who are very good and pasionate sailors. BTW Matt Allen is a former Merchant bank head.

In Aus we seem to bring in people who don't even know how to sail, and that is supposed to be good for our sport. Sure, I might be wrong, I'm just yet to see it work.

And i'm not just talking event I mean the show!

Let's take it to the next step. IOC drops sailing from the games, which means that probably disabled sailing will take a hit as well.

U.S. Sailing would still be responsible for putting together the Pan-Am team, but that would be the extent of it. What would happen to the millions of dollars that U.S. Sailing owns, invested on account at U.S.O.C.? Would that money be funneled to other aspects of U.S. Sailing? Dismantling the Olympic committee and department would be a relatively easy thing to do.

What about ISAF? What would happen to them if they took a $1.25M hit annually going forward? Their "combined worlds" each year prior to the games would disappear. Hopefully they would redirect their efforts on making sailing better for the average bloke.

Then there is us, the sailor. Hopefully the Olympic rules would be quickly eliminated from the sport. Other than that, our world would continue to rotate without a hiccup.

Why drop sailing from the Olympics?

That 5 000 000$ won't be available if they drop it. You either have the 5 million to spend towards a good regatta every 4 years, or you have zero.

Sailing at the Olympics is another venue to try to attract more people to this sport. This is a perfect opportunity to do some PR, do it crowd friendly and make it exciting.

We are a niche sport fighting for survival, how could anyone be happy to lose that much money and coverage?

ISAF would turn in to a slower more beuarcratic system, accountability would drop even further. They would continue to spend what they have where they do, except for the Olympic dollars, we would have to pay more to affiliate, many will get sickof it and sailing will splinter into even more fractions.

Sailing for the average bloke will only stand still or go back.

How often do "the Olympic rules" get used at club level anyway?

I heard an IOC member interviewed yesterday and he was talking about Pentathlon and the horse events being under threat.

Anyone else think it's possible that the Olympic classes do us a favour by concentrating almost all (or probably all) of the high-class small boat talent with full-bore campaigns into a few classes? That gives the sport a structure which it didn't have a while back when there were fewer Olympic dinghy classes and the Olympic classes had less governmental and sponsorship support.

I may very well be full of it, though.

Steve, you were lucky, but surely it's fairer to have a structure that allows for coaching like you got to be earned as a right, rather than given to those who the Olympians happen to sail with in big boats AUIU?? The coaches aren't allowed to coach non-squad sailors and neither they or the sailors like it, it's an AYF rule.

At least one of the states has been asking for a structure arranged so that the Olympians HAD to pass on their knowledge to the next level down, and in return for that assistance the next level HAD to pass on what they had learned further down the fleet, etc.

Surely you're right about getting some sailors into management. Many of the AYF guys rarely sail, know little about the grass roots and are only interested in the big clubs. I've had AYF employees amazed that people sailed in Albury, another referred to a small dinghy club as "flea bitten" and said (in reference to offshore safety gear) that "sailors get the wind for free and expect to pay the same for everything else".

all they need do to insure sailing in the limpdicks is to make sure that these fine dutch sailors, and others like them continue to participate. Be sure and check ALL the links this site affords.

dutch gals

Yeah Chris I was lucky, I didn't get coaching I just sailed with the boys, that was enough learning for me.

I was also at Penguin for awhile and got to hang around a bit, lucky again, but they are all quality and as giving as possible.

As for AUIU, WTF? I'm only simple mate. Not good with big words but worst with big letters! i thought you thought 50's were big, 7m hardly big boat racing.

I believe that the knowledge does get passed down, perhaps right time etc, but I know that some are real approachable and helpful.

I do agree with you, it should be easy to get.

Ah, sorry, I thought if you were sailing with 3 of the Olympic squad it may have been on a S38.